Talk:Penguin (Batman Returns)
Not a Complete Monster The Penguin is not a Complete Monster for several reasons. He has an extremely sufficient Freudian Excuse, he cares about his penguins (when Batman jams the frequency, it causes the penguins pain and the Penguin screams "MY BABIES"), the story presents him as tragic character and intends for us to pity him, and he's not as heinous as the Joker (Joker had a much larger reign of terror and caused hundreds of deaths For The Evulz) Bentonfill (talk) 01:47, January 13, 2014 (UTC) Correction: Joker ATTEMPTED to cause hundreds of deaths, Penguin attempted to kill every firstborn baby in Gotham. So they're equal on that front. As for his Freudian Excuse, we at TV Tropes do not believe Tragic Villain and Complete Monster to be incompatible. There are plenty of tragic villains here who are also listed as CMs because we believe the two can go together. So his Freudian Excuse means nothing here. As for his caring about his penguins, that one's more valid but still dubious to me. Franz Sanchez treats his henchman Dario like kin but is still a Complete Monster. So no, I feel that he is a CM. His Freudian Excuse doesn't save him here and he does meet the heinous standard. Overseer80 (talk) 03:16, January 13, 2014 (UTC) Joker actually did cause hundreds of deaths. Countless people die from the products he poisoned and he gasses a crowd of people at the parade and we see several people die. A freudian excuse can disqualify someone IF it's strong enough. Let's see: His parents tried to kill him as a baby, he grew up as an outcast for his appearance, and for 30 years he was a victim of isolation and discrimination. It's no wonder he wound up being so psychotic and misanthropic. By contrast, a CM like Lotso has a really weak freudian excuse. His owner replaced him because she loved him, so if anything he abandoned her. Lotso is the way he is because of petty jealousy and spite. Penguin is the way he is because of years of psychological trauma. One of the CM criteria is that the story never presents them in a positive way. The movie clearly intends for us to feel bad for Penguin and dedicates a whole tragic death scene to him. Bentonfill (talk) 04:05, January 13, 2014 (UTC) Well here's the thing: normally I'd agree with you regarding the tragic backstory bit, but the Villains Wiki tends to not see it that way. For example, Superman from Injustice Gods Among Us has a VERY tragic backstory but is ultimately regarded as a CM because people stop feeling sorry for him. The same can hold true for Penguin. As for the CM criteria is that the story never presents them in a positive way, I question that too. The Joker is often presented as being genuinely funny, but that does not save him from CM status. I suppose though part of it comes down to how do you define "positive way"? In any event, I suppose we can leave it as is for now and wait and see if anyone else puts in their two cents. Overseer80 (talk) 04:18, January 13, 2014 (UTC)